All photos are from Facebook and used with John Hackleman's permission.
Kajukenbo Okayama: Tell us about yourself.
John Hackleman: My name is John Hackleman, a.k.a. Pitmaster. I am a martial arts guy, basically. My main focus is martial arts and fitness. I teach from kids 3 years old all the way to…I think my oldest student is 73. It’s a belted system, called Hawaiian Kempo. My original system was Kajukenbo. I started in ‘69 or ‘70 in Honolulu, Hawaii. I was 9. My instructor was Walter Godin. I also got the title “Master”, “Grandmaster” or something…I think 9th degree…from Emperado before he passed away.
I’ve done every form of martial art. I went to the army for awhile, I boxed professionally, kickboxed professionally. I’m a registered nurse. I worked at the prison for a bunch of years.
Now, I just run a school. I train a few MMA fighters. In fact, I’m going to Vegas tomorrow to work the PFL (Professional Fighter’s League) million dollar tournament at the Mandalay Bay. Other than that I’m just basically a karate guy.
KO: How do you describe the difference between “Kajukenbo” and “Hawaiian Kempo”.
Hackleman: Well, I’ve heard “Hawaiian Kempo” elsewhere, but I originated “Hawiian Kempo” in ‘85. I had never heard it before, but I knew I wanted to break away from “Kajukenbo” because of all the forms, and the katas, and anything choreographed. To me…I love Kajukenbo, its mentality, its philosophy…it’s my life. But I didn’t like some of the techniques. I felt they were ineffective.
So, when I opened my own school in ‘85…with the blessing of my instructor (Godin)…
…who, when I was a kid, I would say “Hey, Chief. How’s this technique gonna work in a real fight? And he would say “Shut the fuck up and keep doing what I tell you until you’re a black belt. Then you can do whatever you want.” That was my instructor. I loved him to death. But that was his attitude.
So I did. I did the kata, I got my belts, shit like that. And then after I got out of the army, I wanted to open my own gym, but I didn’t want to have to teach anyone else that. I just felt it was a waste of everybody’s time. So I took them all out of the curriculum, and then I thought “well shit, I can’t call it Kajukenbo anymore”.
I came up with different names and I just figured “Kempo (拳法) means ‘law of the fist’…and I’m from Hawaii…so I'll call it Hawaiian Kempo. With an ‘M’.” (As opposed to “Kenpo”).
(Editor’s note: The character “拳” is here read “ken/kem” and means “fist”. The character “法” is here read “pou” and means “method, law, rule, or principle”.)
I didn’t know of anyone else in the world using that phrase “Hawaiian Kempo” until the 1990’s. I went to a tournament and there were these guys wearing these gis with some Hawaiian print on it, and they were calling their system Hawaiian “Kenpo” with an “N”. And I was like “Well, I knew them back in the early ‘90s. And they had called it ‘Ryu Dojo Kenpo’.”
It was more of a Japanese style, but they kind of changed that to Hawaiian sometime in the mid-90s. That’s the only other system of “Hawaiian Kenpo” I’d ever heard of, and they were like 10 years after mine. I don’t know another system that’s really Hawaiian Kempo/Kenpo except for that one and mine.
That’s why I changed it. I love the word “Kempo”…we spelled it with an “M” in Hawaii, they spell it with an “N” in the mainland…so I called mine Hawaiian Kempo. It means the same thing: “law of the fist”. So I just started it, and I made it with no forms, no katas, I put in a curriculum that I wanted to teach, and I’ve been going with it since ‘85.
KO: How has fighting changed over the years?
Hackleman: I don’t think street fighting has changed at all…except there’s more guys that pull guard on the street, but…I don’t think it’s really changed much.
Sport fighting…besides the fact that there is “MMA” now and there wasn’t before…I don’t think kickboxing has changed. I don’t think boxing has changed. I don’t think any other sport martial art has changed except for the addition of MMA. And that’s changed the teaching of traditional karate, because it’s exposed so many weaknesses and brought up to the surface so many fraudulent techniques and systems that were proven to be ineffective.
I think…As an instructor I find that MMA has brought the phonies out and made martial arts a lot more realistic.
KO: How does the teaching of the martial arts transition to coaching MMA?
Hackleman: Well, my instructor was different than most. My instructor was more of a Kajukenbo guy.
You ever hear the titles like “sifu”, “sigung” and all that used? That’s not Kajukenbo. That’s like…new Kajukenbo. Kajukenbo, when I was training in Hawaii…where Kajukenbo was founded…there was no Chinese, no Japanese words. It was “instructor”, “chief instructor”, “professor”, then it was “master”, then “grandmaster”, then “great grandmaster”. There was no “sifu”, “sigung”, any of that. That came later.
That came with, I think, Eric Lee and Al Dacascos, they brought in some Kung Fu, more of the soft style. Old school Kajukenbo was just fucking punch, kick, kill ‘em, stomp ‘em…a real “animal instinct”. They loved to use animal instinct. They would talk about that in the training.
It was a street system. It was a hardcore system. Without this system, without Kajukenbo, without my instructor, Walter Godin…who was not a very nice person and spent 25 years in prison but was kind to me…without that system, right now I would be wearing a floral nightdress with a fucking man bun. I’d be bald but I would have a man bun.
Nothing bad intended for any of the guys that do that. It’s just that that’s where I’d be right now if it weren’t for Kajukenbo and my instructors. Just saying.
The difference in the training of a student and a fighter…almost everything is the same. The techniques are almost all the same. There’s like 3 techniques on either side that can’t be used for both. That’s why I say MMA brought martial arts to reality. Almost every technique that an MMA fighter uses can be used in the street. Almost every single one. And almost every technique that is effective in the street can be used in MMA. Not every technique, not quite. But they’re almost all identical.
And every technique in the street has been proven in MMA to be either successful or useless. People look at eye gouging for example.
Have you ever seen an eye poke in the cage? Yes. Have you seen how effective it is? Yes. Is it legal? No. Is it legal in the street? Yes. And now we know it works. We’ve seen it work in MMA. It’s crazy the way that is. And I love that about MMA.
But the teaching…in the gym, I’m teaching my people to stay alive. I just want them to stay alive. If they get jumped in the street, I want them to stay alive. I don’t want them to go to prison, but I’d rather they go prison than the morgue.
For my kids, it’s a little different. It’s not life or death. It’s playground dominance, like it was for me. If it wasn’t for Daryl Silva in 8th grade trying to start a fight with me, and me beating him up in front of everyone…that got me “unbullied” forever. I never got bullied again after that. That’s what I want from my students: never to be bullied. It’s not life or death for kids. That’s for adults. The goal is different, but the training is the same.
Now for my fighters, the goal is to win a UFC title. That’s their goal. So the way we go about it is a little different. These guys are more sport oriented. Those guys are street oriented. But almost everything is the same. And I treat both the same. These guys are my students. They get their black belts. Glover (Teixeira), Court (McGee), Ramsey (Nijem), Chuck (Liddell)…they all got their black belts from me.
I treat each training session like a class. All my fight teams are run like a class, and my class is run like a fight team.
John with former student Anthony Ingram, who is now pursuing a path in music.
KO: Recently you were talking about bullying on Facebook.
Hackleman: Yeah, then I got bullied. I got my shit taken down, then I got some douchbag chick on Facebook turn me in to the Facebook police, she started badmouthing me on Yelp…she was being a real Facebook “bully”. She was mad at me for one of my posts, so she turned into a bully.
I’m against bullying to the core. But beating a bully is not about “being aware”…we don’t have to be “aware” of bullies. We know they’re there. We don’t need a ribbon, a shirt, a color, or a day…that doesn’t help.
If you have cancer, “cancer awareness” is not gonna make it go away. You have to fight the fucking cancer. For bullies, you have to fight the bully. That’s the only way. You can’t sweet talk the bully. You can’t buy the bully. You have to fight the bully to make him go away. You have to beat the bully at his own game, or he’ll keep bullying you.
I mean, do you agree with that?
KO: I do, especially here in Japan. In fact we got a lot of bullying with the adults. (Called “パワハラ”, or “pawahara” from the term “power harassment”).
Hackleman: Adult bullying. That’s another topic.
I’m a registered nurse. I worked in the ER. A doctor was talking to me in a certain way and it was bullying. It wasn’t physical bullying. It’s not really something I care about because if a guy that I don’t really care about talks down to me, I don’t give a fuck. He means nothing to me. So I don’t really care about social media bullying, except when they’re attacking my business. I don’t care personally.
But it rubbed me the wrong way, so…this is in the work place, he’s a doctor, I’m a nurse, so I said “Hey, can we speak outside for a second bro?”
So he comes outside of the ER, and I go “Man, I know you’re the doc, I’m the nurse, I’m gonna do whatever you tell me to do, but I do not like the way you talk to me, and that needs to stop right now.”
And he looked at me and he goes like “…What are you talking about?”
“I don’t like the way you talk to me. You’re very condescending and I don’t like that. I don’t appreciate it. And it’s not gonna happen anymore. I’ll still do everything you say, but you’re gonna change your tone.”
And he looked at me and he goes “Am I really doing that?”
I go “Yeah. You actually do it to me and all the other nurses. He goes “Shit. I’m so sorry man.”
We became best friends! To this day we’re still best friends. He just wasn’t even aware of it.
People that talk about being “aware” of it on facebook or whatever…I don’t take it seriously. To me, that’s a band-aid. The whole “try to talk ‘em down” and “de-escalate” mentality…to me that’s like a band-aid. It’s dealing with a scratch. You put a band-aid on a scratch. It’s very necessary, because that scratch could get infected. But I still don’t really…that’s not my thing.
My thing is, I’m a “trauma surgeon”. When your arm is hanging off by a thread, I wanna save the arm. I don’t worry about the paper cut on your other hand. It could turn into an infection someday…but I’m worried about the arm.
I’m worried about the guy that’s attacking. I’m not worried about de-escalating. I’m not focusing on being aware of your surroundings. I’m worried about when the guy’s in my face and I need to respond right now before I end up in a fucking coma with a tracheostomy tube, my wife fucking my neighbor, and me waking up in 6 months with nothing being the same.
KO: Can you tell me more about your HK3 program? Is that different from your Hawaiian Kempo?
Hackleman: No. It’s exactly the same. Let me tell ya.
Master Wong approached me. I looked at his stuff, and I don’t agree with a lot of his stuff, but I agree with his heart. And I agree with his end result.
Someone asked me today: “Hey, does his stuff work? Is his stuff practical?”
I was like “It’s not all stuff I would do, but I tell you what. Try to lay your hands on his 2-year old daughter, and you’ll see how effective his shit is.”
I’ve been hit by him, I’ve been grabbed by him, I know how strong he is and how hard he hits. Even though I don’t agree with all of his techniques, and he doesn’t agree with all of mine, at the core, we agree with each other and we’re building on each other. Our online mentality is the same, but he’s much better than me at a lot of things. That’s why he has 2-point-whatever million followers, and I have like 10,000.
But my martial arts expertise and experience is a lot more than his. I’ve won world titles and trained world champions. Together, we’re a really good combination.
HK3 is Hawaiian Kempo…the “3” means “mind, body, spirit”…the reason we call it HK3 is we were talking about our online program verses my in-house program, verses my fight team…I have different programs., and they’re all under the “Pit” umbrella. HK3 is what I teach at my dojo but it’s the program I teach online. It’s the same techniques, the same philosophy, the same mentality…you can get white through black through either one…but you gotta do the same things. It’s just a different way of going about it.
(Editor’s note: Kajukenbo considers the unity of mind, body and spirit to be a goal of self-betterment, represented by the clover at the top of our symbol.)
KO: A lot of people have negative things to say about getting a belt online. What’re your thoughts on that?
Hackleman: I used to have negative things to say too, kind of. But I never had a firm opinion on it being negative, because I know the Gracies did it. Gracie University has given belts online and no one ever said “Oh, they’re sellouts.” And the way they go about it, it seems that got everything covered. You still have to learn the techniques.
I also know nurses who have gotten their fucking Master’s online, and now they’re making $95 an hour being a nurse. Nobody ever said that was a sellout.
And I think there are so many phony kata guys that do shit in their brick-and-mortar gyms, and I’m teaching real techniques, and you gotta do real conditioning, I just have to see it online. I see so many McDojos in real life that are charging, like, $230 a month, so it’s hard for me to think that what I’m doing online wouldn’t be a lot more credible.
I could see people saying negative things, but then I could see Karate guys saying “I don’t need to learn takedown defense, I know how to reverse punch. I’ll just reverse punch the guy and I’ll never get taken down. And I know wrestlers that say “I don’t need to keep my hands up. I’m never gonna get hit. I’ll just take ‘em down.”
And then they get knocked out.
Everybody has their own mentality, and that’s another thing that MMA to me has brought to the surface: the reality.
You’re never gonna hear Joe Rogan saying “Oh, you train at the Pit? That’s phony.” You’re never gonna hear that. I don’t care if it’s my online course or my brick-and-mortar gym, you will never hear Joe Rogan say “Hey, that course is not really effective.” And to me that’s like, that’s it right there. When Joe Rogan says you’re good, you’re good.
John putting in the work with student Cody Elliot.
KO: What was it like training Chuck Liddell over the years?
Hackleman: It was a whirlwind. One day I’m getting a call from his sensei…he was doing traditional karate, and his sensei didn’t like the fact that I was teaching MMA type stuff in the early ‘90s. This is before the UFC. But I was already teaching people to learn take down defense, learn this, learn that, because I wanted to be reality based.
I remember bringing guys in and they go “What are the rules?”
And I go “There’s no rules bro. We’re just going. Go as hard as you want me to go with you.” As soon as I crack ‘em a left hook, people are trying to tackle me. So I had to learn how to defend take downs really early in my teaching career.
So some Koei Kan Karate guy didn’t like that, and he called me out and said “Your system is a sport, and you’re ruining the traditions of martial arts, and…”
I go “Well bro, my stuff is for the streets.”
He goes “Our guys would kill you in the street.”
“Well, why don’t you and I get together this weekend and we’ll spar a little bit. Street rules. And we’ll see who wins.” And he goes “Okay”.
So we set up a meeting. This is actually in Chuck’s book. All of a sudden…I think he made a couple calls and found out about me, found out I was a kickboxing champion, I’d already fought MMA, I was an amateur boxing champion…I went down to his dojo one Friday night, and he goes “You know what? My back’s been bugging me.”
I go “Alright, we’ll do it another time.” I swear to God. You can read this in Chuck’s book.
He goes “Well, you can challenge the guy over there.”
I remember looking and thinking…the first thing I thought was “…Who the hell wears a mohawk?” That was the first thing I though. Chuck was there warming up. He knew what was gonna happen. I didn’t know.
Glover Teixeira, John Hackleman, and Chuck Liddell.
So we get in there. You know, Chuck’s a big, strong guy. The instructor introduced us, and me and Chuck went at it. Chuck was really strong, really tough. He didn’t quite have the skills yet, and I did. I was a lot older and a lot more experienced.
After we were done, he came up to me and he goes “Hey, can you teach me how to fight?”
I go “Yeah!”
I gave him my card and I thought I’d never see him again, but he was at my dojo the next day. And he’s been there ever since. The next thing I know we’re in a fucking private plane to Japan and he’s fighting in Pride. It was just that quick. It was that quick from me getting him his first amateur kickboxing match in Bakersfield to all of a sudden him walking into the cage at the Mandalay Bay in front of 20,000 screaming fans. It just happened that quick.
KO: Are there any martial artists or fighters that you look up or looked up to?
Hackleman: My favorite without a doubt would be Benny “The Jet” Urquidez, the best kickboxer that’s ever lived. Also, Royce Gracie, who I feel changed martial arts more than any single person in the world. Just the way he put it all out there and said “Fuck it. I’ll test you out.” I feel he changed everything in martial arts.
And then Bruce Lee, just because of his innovative training. 1969, he had a book about traditional martial artists learning double-leg and single-leg takedowns, left hooks, the boxing stance, intense training with sprints. When everyone else was just saying run slow for a long time and shit, he was way ahead of his time.
KO: You mention the left hook a lot. That’s one of your trademarks, isn’t it?
Hackleman: It is. It’s my everything. For me it’s like Dan Henderson’s H-Bomb. It’s my takedown defense, it’s my takedown, it’s my escape from the grab…everything I do is a left hook.
KO: Any advice on doing a proper left hook?
Hackleman: First, the most important body part of any hand strike is the fist. So many people neglect that and they end up breaking their hand. It’s a no brainer. They spend time working their biceps, and their pecks, they wanna look good. They neglect the fists, but they’re the most important weapon we have as martial artists.
Next is the hip. It goes hip first, which starts everything, and then no telegraphing. So many people wanna get more power so they pull back and the other guy sees it coming.
I would rather you drop your hand (straight down) and bring the hook back up from there. It’s harder to see that coming than a typical load up. Loading up stays in their peripheral vision and they’ll see it and counter it.
But if you drop it all the way down…which I don’t say you should do all the time…it’s not in their vision until suddenly it’s in their face. I also have my lead hand here (out in front, rather than by my face), like you see when Chuck was fighting. From there you can just throw a hook and a jab.
KO: Is there any other advice you have for Kajukenbo practitioners, Hawaiian Kempo practitioners, or people who do martial arts in general?
Hackleman: Learn wrestling, which to me is two things only: takedowns and takedown defense, and you don’t need to know more than one of either. The less you know the better. The fewer techniques, the better. When you know a lot of techniques, you’re gonna think too much. It’s called Hick’s law.
If something happens, and in your brain there are like 10 options, it’s gonna take you longer to get out there than it would if you only have one option. Like, when you touch the fire you don’t have any other option but to pull your hand off.
So to me, the take down should always be a double-leg takedown for anybody but an accomplished wrestler. Those guys got singles, ankle picks, they got all kinds of stuff. But to me, a traditional martial artist should learn that one takedown and then takedown defense. That’s wrestling.
Everyone should learn wrestling. If you’re not learning wrestling, you’re not a martial artist.
You should learn to fight from the top and the bottom, you should learn submission and submission defense. And you should always learn striking.
And, always…always…train your conditioning. In class, every martial arts school should have conditioning built in, alongside striking, wrestling, and jiu-jutsu.
If you’re not doing all four of those things, it’s a partial art. Not a martial art. And that’s Kajukenbo: a martial art.
Don’t forget. In 1947, that’s what Kajukenbo was about. Before there was “sigung” and “sifu” and “sijos” and all the katas and forms and stuff like that…it was street. It was made for the street. A lot of stuff got tacked onto it. To me, that stuff weighted it down. But back in 1947, they wanted it to be a street fighting, street defense system.
And there were takedowns. There was takedown defense. There was fighting from the bottom and fighting from the top. The top was always pounding somebody and shit, but there was all of that. And there was a lot of conditioning too, which is not as popular as it was.
KO: Can I hook you up with my Kajukenbo friend in Hyogo? His name's Angelo and he's doing a podcast.
Hackleman: Sure. I will do anything for martial arts. Anything. People that act like they’re too busy…nobody’s busier than I am right now. Those people are full of shit. Everybody has the time to put into their martial art.
John with his family: Blake, Tanner, and Zach.
Stop by the Pit Martial Art and Fitness at 1106 East Grand Avenue, in Arroyo Grande, California, or call 1-805-473-2500.
Or check him out on the web at www.thepit.tv
Or check him out on Instagram @pit_master