(Sifu Anthony "Ted" Rollins of San Leandro, Ca, is one my teachers and, more importantly, one of my good friends. He taught me a lot about life and Kajukenbo, and I was honored to interview him in a video conference about his life and training. I hope you enjoy the conversation we had earlier this week, and learn from it as well.)
Kajukenbo Okayama: Tell us about yourself.
Anthony Rollins: My name is Anthony, but you know me as Sifu Ted. For many, many years, I was Sifu Ted. Then I went back to school, changed careers, and I didn’t want to explain to everyone “Ted is my middle name, please call me Ted…”. I got tired of it.
And the other thing with the name "Ted" was the people I shared the name with. You got Ted Bundy, Ted Kaczynski, but then Ted Cruz…that was too much. I couldn’t take it.
So I said “Okay, I’m gonna use my first name.” Now I go by Anthony.
I own a business: Rollins Ceramic Arts. I’m a potter, a studio technician, and instructor in Ceramic Art. And it’s great. I really love it. One of the best jobs I’ve ever had.
K.O.: What other jobs have you had in the past?
Rollins: I’ve been a machinist, a handyman, I worked in construction, did the jack-of-all trades thing, I worked in bowling alleys…you name it. I was a day-trader, played poker, worked as a bouncer in a bar. And I tell ya…it comes in handy when you know martial arts and work as a bouncer in a bar.
K.O.: Did you use your martial arts a lot, working as a bouncer?
Rollins: Occasionally, yes. You had to. But the thing is, (as a bouncer) you’re trying to control people, and not bust them up.
I mean, there’re liability issues when you’re working with the public, even for police. Everybody has a camera. But back in the late 80’s/early 90’s, when I did work as a bouncer, not everybody had a video camera, so you didn’t get caught on tape beating the daylights out of somebody.
Which was a good thing.
Nowadays you can’t get away with anything, because there’s gonna be 10 people watching. If you tell somebody to get out of the bar, there’s gonna be 10 people filming it. There’s a whole bunch of liability issues you didn’t have to deal with then.
And that’s probably the same with any type of martial art that you might have to use on the street to defend yourself. Unless it’s totally a self defense situation, you’re gonna get all this guy’s friends or whoever taking videos of it, and there’s evidence of what actually happened. So you better be on the right side of things.
K.O.: What’s your history with Kajukenbo and the martial arts?
Rollins: In my 20’s I started Taekwondo for about a year. Then I trained as a boxer, for about a year. I wound up in the Kuk Sul system for like 3 years, and it was very political.
There was forced testing every 3 months because it would generate money that would go back to Busan. Of course, you had to pay testing fees. There’re a lot of schools that do this to generate money.
And if you didn’t take the test, then your master’s people above him would give him grief. “Hey, this guy didn’t test. We didn’t get the money this month..."
Now when the time came, I felt that I wasn’t ready to test for my black belt. And I said so. And then what happened was I got passed over for, like, the next 5 testings. I had to take the tests, but I got passed over. And all the people who were behind me, skill wise and rank wise, passed me up. It was like a punishment.
So I took that crap for about a year and a half, and I said “Y’know. I’m tired of this.” I left. Just went back to the gym. Lifted weights. I’ve been strength training most of my life. And then about a year later, I just kind of felt unfulfilled…that I hadn’t finished.
Because it was there…they had my black belt gi, with my name on it, my belt was there. But the politics of it kind of soured me on the system itself.
So I started looking around and I went to Grandmaster Juarez' school (at that time it was “Sifu” Juarez). I walked in, and he said to me “I’ll be with you after class.” Ok, cool.
Later, Juarez would tell me that these people had paid for him and his time. He never stopped his class to come and, you know, hustle students. And I really respected that.
So, I watched his class, and then we sat and talked. I told him my situation and training background, and then I actually started as a white belt in his class. And that was fine. I was willing to start over, learn the system.
And after one year, we had promotion night, and everybody was lined up, and he was handing out belts, and they were all getting promoted, and I thought “Alright! I’m gonna get my yellow belt, I’m progressing, I’m learning the system…” and he pulls out a brown belt. And he makes me a brown belt after a year.
He did this because I showed up, I worked, I did everything I needed to do. Of course, some of the class was quite stunned. But they really didn’t complain about it too much – cause I could back it up. I had already been a brown belt for several years, so I could back up the skill set.
And then of course I stayed with the Kajukenbo system for over 20 years.
From left to right: Anthony Rollins, Ron Esteller, and John Hojlo in a Kajukenbo photo, circa 2003.
KO: And, are you training these days?
Rollins: Just on my own. I do my stretching four times a week, and a lot of that is physical therapy for my back. I basically retired because I have two compressed disks. I also have arthritis in my hips, and it got to the point where the impacts caused me problems, and caused me a lot of pain. But I’m still able to, y’know, move around, do drills, do bagwork, I just can’t really take that pounding.
So, the flexibility exercises, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that’s gonna be a lifetime commitment that helps with my work, helps with my flexibility.
I think of the health benefits of our system, and I think of the training. You’ll taper off how hard the training is as you get older. Your body will tell you, “Hey, y’know I really can’t take these hard leg kicks anymore. I really can’t do this anymore. I have these injuries and this and that…" These things build up over time and you’ll just kind of taper your workout to what fits you. But I never think “Hey, I’m just gonna stop doing this altogether.” I never think that.
KO: So, do you practice with forms as well?
Rollins: Occasionally. Your forms are like your ABC’s.
There’re people on both sides of "how to look at forms". Some people hate forms. They think it’s a detriment, blah blah blah…but it’s actually your set of ABC’s. It’s how you build sentences.
And when you break down a form with targets, and you can go through whatever’s going on, and break that form down for the student, it really gives them a mental picture. It really gives them an idea of what he/she's supposed to be doing.
Besides...with a partner, I can’t do an eye poke. You can’t punch them in the throat, you can’t hit them in the groin. You’re not gonna have partners. So, we always have to tone down.
But visually, you can pretty much do anything you want to, in a form. So this is how I consider forms. Just like learning your ABC’s, or playing your scales on the guitar. It’s just how you get to a different point.
So yeah, I still workout. I bounce around, I think I can still rumble...I look pretty good for 63.
KO: Sixty-three? I wouldn’t’ve believed it. That your natural hair color? You look 25.
Rollins: You must have a bad camera.
K.O.: Kajukenbo is sometimes described as a mix of traditional, sport, and street fighting. Which do you think is the most important part?
Rollins: I came to the martial arts for the self defense aspect of it.
I wanted to feel comfortable walking down the street, or with my girlfriend, or whoever...no matter what the situation, you need to be aware of what’s going on, and I came to know I could handle myself. This was the most important thing.
Y’know, the sport part, the sparring, all this...you need to practice your skills under controlled conditions. And I have been in real street fights in a bar, where someone’s trying to take your head off. There’s no referee that steps in. There’s nobody on your side.
Understand the difference between the two: In sport, someone’s gonna step in and stop the fight before it gets ugly. In real fights, there’s a crowd of people who are just gonna watch. So, you better be able to handle your business.
So, for me, the self defense aspect is the most important aspect. But the sport part is how we practice without killing people.
MMA, all of that…they have rules. They don’t allow certain strikes or techniques. They’re not gonna allow me to go and gouge this guy’s eye out in the corner. That’s not gonna happen. But maybe, on the street, to survive, this might happen. You do whatever it takes.
Being aware is also more important in self defense too.
Where are you? What kind of neighborhood am I in? What kind of neighborhood are you gonna go to? Am I gonna walk into the liquor store in the barrio at 10:00 at night? Probably not! I’m gonna get my beer early and be home.
These are the things that are really important.
K.O.: Are there any martial artists you look up to or used to look up to?
Rollins: James Juarez. He's a man with the ultimate dedication to the martial arts. In my experience with him, and working with him and training with him...here’s a man that told me “Hey, bring it. Let me see what you got.”
Now, I’m a full grown man, and you know how hard I hit…
KO: Yes, I do. Very well...(laughing)
Rollins: He just took my punch and said “Hey. Good job.” I was like “Wow”.
From left to right: Dolores Juarez, Anthony Rollins, and James Juarez, circa 1990.
We used to spar, he and I. He’d knock me down, I’d give him a black eye...we gave, back and forth. And I respected him immensely for that.
I can’t say that I’ve ever sparred with Chuck Norris, or Jackie Chan, or any of these people. But I have a huge amount of respect because he stood in there with me, and we gave as good as we got. And I respected that, immensely. Still do.
K.O.: Favorite movie involving fighting or the martial arts?
Rollins: The Big Brawl, Jackie Chan. Guys coming after him with knives, and so many different things going on...and Chan's so acrobatic. It was just awesome.
It was really the first big martial arts movie besides Enter the Dragon, y’know, which you’ve seen many many times. But The Big Brawl was, I think, fun. It made things a little more popular. It made it a little more mainstream, and people enjoyed it.
K.O.: Do the martial arts affect your everyday life or work?
Rollins: Yes. Even at my age, I’m still flexible. I’m able to bend down and put my palms flat on the floor. As we get older, the things that happen to your body...
For one thing, you lose flexibility. We're kind of a nation that sits a lot. And when you do that, muscle structure atrophies.
So, four or five times a week, I still do all of my basic/beginning stretching that you learned in class, that we used to do together. And then I do some physical therapy for my back. Then I go and lift weights. I think it’s after age 50 that you can lose 50% of your muscle mass.
So when you see people that say “Oh, I’ve fallen and I can’t get up…” That’s their own damn fault. That’s their fault for not doing anything about it. Cause you can.
I’m 63, I still bench 285. And I weigh 188 pounds now. I still have my good strength, my good leg strength.
Everything I do at my job is very physical. The minimum weight I pick up at work is 25 pounds. The heaviest, on up to 75. So, without working out, I would lose something that I really love to do.
The martial arts, the stretching, the movement, the balance…these are all things that are helpful to me in my daily life. And I’ll continue for as long as possible. I won’t quit.
K.O: What was the proudest moment for you in your Kajukenbo training?
Rollins: The day I tested for my first degree black belt. Four hours of non-stop, grueling, biker-gang beatdown that I survived. And that gave me the strength to get through a lot of tough times in my life.
Y’know, you have a divorce, you lose a job…and I can look back at that tape and go “You know, you got through this test. This other stuff is a piece of cake.”
Anthony Rollin's black belt test, circa 1990.
It gave me an inner strength, and I feel that that was the purpose of Professor Juarez’ tests: to see what kind of inner strength you actually had, and to ask "are you gonna survive?". Juarez always said, “That’s my job. I can’t leave the studio with you. I have to teach you how to survive."
So that was the proudest moment in my life, when I finished that test. And the people there applauded me, and I was awarded my first degree black belt, by a very strong group of people that showed up to spar with me.
Tom Theo＊ was there, Van was there, all of the top guys were there. There was no slouches that came to my test. Ronnie＊ was there. There were a lot of good people at the test that I got to spar with and show my skillset to. But in the end, the test was also a good reminder that when you get your black belt, you're still a beginner.
(＊Tom Theofanopolous is a Kajukenbo Grandmaster 9th degree, Bjj black belt 3rd degree, Judo black belt 2nd degree, WAKO style kickboxing black belt 1st degree, and the founder of Oakdale MMA, a home of the Last Stand fight team. Van Sutton is another Kajukenbo black belt under GM Juarez who still teaches. Ron Esteller is a Kajukenbo Grandmaster, 9th degree, who has taught in the San Francisco Bay Area for more than 34 years, not only at his dojo but at local middle schools and the Boys' and Girls' Club as well.)
K.O.: Do you have any advice for Kajukenbo practitioners or martial artists in general these days?
Rollins: Absolutely. Don’t worry about the promotions. Don’t worry about the belts. Don’t worry about all the politics. Train like your life depends on it. 'Cause it does. That’s why you’re there.
(Post-script: I really thought he was going to say his favorite movie was Roadhouse.)